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Post by Merry927 on Dec 28, 2015 15:34:19 GMT -5
Hi all! I wanted to post about the issue of converting custom content made by other creators for TS2 and TS3. Having played TS2 for years, it is always exciting to see old, familiar objects available for TS4, but I have been finding out that much of this content violates the TOUs of the original creators. The other day, I came across this post reblogged from tinkle, who has been meshing amazing things with a very generous policy for a very long time, on tumblr: "I honestly have no desire to “convert” previous items that I have created for previous games, so if you wish to “convert” my items to another game version - go ahead. However, what I can not stand is when you “convert” something I spent hours on to create for the original version and then you post it with restrictions, and without even bothering to note the ORIGINAL creator." Please read the whole thing at the link above. Tinkle gave me permission to repost it. If you have a problem with what is said here, please "shoot the messenger" and leave her alone. She sure doesn't deserve getting flack for saying it. We like stuff, right? Please don't do things that make people regret making us stuff. I had been downloading with the attitude that following TOUs is the responsibility of converters and recolorers (I take it seriously), but then when I want to use some of it for my own recolors, I have to go scouring the interwebs for original TOUs and frequently find that the converter violated the TOU of the original creator. This is especially frustrating when the original creator merely requests getting permission and giving credit and ignoring these requirements effectively prevents others from ever using the content ethically, when it could have all been good. My experience with contacting creators for permissions have been very positive. Typically they thank me for asking, which is undoubtedly a reflection of how infrequent that is. That makes me feel humbled, because I barely create anything original myself. I use textures I find online on meshes others have made. I want to remind myself and others of how much talent, skill, energy, and time it takes to mesh something from scratch or hand paint/create a texture. Now I don't have any pat answers about what to do in the case of retired creators, but many creators are still creating. For instance, Jope&Sauza and Aikea Guinea have current TOUs forbidding conversions. Beyond that, I am sure that all these issues have been very well hashed out many times in the Simmer community, but please, please everyone do your best to be respectful and ethical. I am now checking before downloading, because my previous strategy was based on the false assumption that inappropriately edited and shared work would not be nearly as common as it appears to be. I am also going to be more aware about how I credit others, to be more properly respectful of original meshers/texturers. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2015 19:26:37 GMT -5
I agree that's why whenever someone asks for help on a recolor or conversion of a CC I ask if they got permission and I check myself to see if it is allowed in there TOS.
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Post by Merry927 on Feb 7, 2016 14:05:53 GMT -5
Glad I remembered this thread, because I just found out that I gave some inaccurate information. Correction: Aikea Guinea and gelydh require others to get permission to modify or convert meshes. TOU @ Club Crimsyn |
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Post by midnightsky on Feb 7, 2016 16:25:50 GMT -5
I retextured a converted male hair and 2 days back I found out the original creator does not allow conversions.
That was what someone told me. Turns our that person was wrong. Just checked.
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Post by freeasabird on Feb 17, 2016 11:13:32 GMT -5
I take the TOU seriously as well. But I also love to see the sims 2 things back and working. My problem is that if the original site has gone I will assume that the creators have left the community and no longer care what happens to the meshes. Jope has made some amazing things but now I have no idea if its ok to convert the meshes. The ones I have done for personal use took a great deal of work including realigning meshes to fit this game and I would like to share a couple of them. I mean no disrespect to any creators who meshed for S2/S/3, but now I don't think I will risk sharing what I have done. I have seen a great deal of Kativips' things but try as I might I cannot find her policy on conversion, and I searched all her pages on Cradle Of Darkness and others. ??? So regardless of who else takes her work and re posts it I will leave it until I'm sure it's ok, and that includes personal use because I have a great deal of respect for her work and her generosity. Admittedly there are others that I wouldn't give a second thought to before converting for personal use, the (Sims 2) objects I paid or donated for I play with without guilt much the same as EA objects. I made my TOU fairly open because I feel that copyright or whatever it can be called has lost control. The real hard truth is if you put it on line you set it free and no amount of TOU is going to stop people doing what they want with it. I have had my artwork re used on face book of all places and it was an extraordinary feeling to see something I had made ten years ago plastered across several group pages all claiming it was theirs  I let it go, life is too short. I have no doubt my meshes are being taken apart or whatever as I type, but there's nothing I can do so why worry. I know how hard it is to get these things right and it must be incredibly frustrating to see work taken and the credit along with it. Maybe we should name and shame those who do this? |
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Post by jkaliszew on Feb 17, 2016 20:52:15 GMT -5
As I'm new to creating I make sure to read the artist TOS if I'm planning on recoloring or using a mesh made by someone else. However I am guilty of downloading things from people because I love how they put the lot together they are showcasing and I have honestly never thought about the objects I'm downloading might be stolen or re uploaded without permissions, not because I don't care but because I'm focused on the lot that's being presented and how it was put together. It's threads like this that make people aware, like myself.    |
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Post by Merry927 on Feb 17, 2016 23:55:16 GMT -5
It's is a challenge to make sure that what you are downloading isn't in violation of the original creator's TOU. I started out giving very little thought to it until I began to see the scope of the problem. One of the things that threw me was that many of these things had been widely recolored and I didn't think of how many creators make a distinction between recolors and edits, and that conversions are edits.
I am not advocating the creation of drama. I think it can be quite effective to positively state the appropriate expectations and keep the issue at the forefront of people's minds. I respect that creators have to choose how to respond for themselves; I can't tell someone how they should deal with violations of their own work either.
I personally don't think I could find it worth the drama either, freeasabird, and I also support freedom on the internet. If I want to share the things I do make freely, I feel like that should be respected too. That idea seems to get left out of the discussion a lot, so that part of Tinkle's writing resonates with me. I don't think that adding something of value to something should give one greater rights than the person who's original work made the subsequent work even possible. So it's not always about restricting use. Some people choose to allow others to use their work commercially even. I don't know if people who try to put greater restrictions on other people's work after editing it tend to realize what they are doing or not.
I also understand that many, but young people especially, feel that they should benefit from their productive work, out of necessity and principle. My son is a young graphic artist and I can't argue that people generally shouldn't.
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Post by freeasabird on Feb 24, 2016 22:59:06 GMT -5
Jkaliszew, I too didn't give much thought when I was downloading Sims 2 things until I started changing and uploading them. It was only then I realised that I should really make an effort, so I'm no saint in that department I get what your saying Merry927, every time I want to change something I do think about the fact that I might want to share if it turns out well, even if its re colour. I really don't want to upset anyone so if in doubt I just don't. Its kinda sad though, some of my best sims 2 work will never be seen because the creators didn’t allow sharing and they were just re colours. And yes I agree if I change a mesh and love the result and feel its better, it makes no difference, if the creator said no sharing then no sharing it is. I had this discussion with a non Sim player a couple of nights ago and he pointed out some things I had not thought of. Copyright is not just a matter of this (C) (oh rats can't find the little icon, it is 4.01am here  ) if something is a truly original idea then it can be legally copyrighted. But how many of us Sims creators really create something totally new? I know I haven’t. If I really came up with a new sofa, bed etc I would not be in blender struggling to make it work in the Sims 4. I would be contacting the patent office and someone to manufacture it. I use endless free textures and sometimes free meshes (I love those people) to see how it was done. I also suspect that all objects made for this game as we use their original meshes are legal property (in a loose sense) to EA games?  I love the fact that this community share ideas and inspirations, I hope it continues.(With limited drama )  |
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Post by jkaliszew on Feb 25, 2016 8:31:28 GMT -5
The copyright debate and using EA's meshes, has always been confusing to me. Especially when there's the definition of derivative work, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work. But, I think it comes down to respecting a person's TOS, no matter what the situation is as they put time and effort in creating something that is free to download. freeasabird, made me grin. Yeah, now I'm more careful when downloading things for the sims. This site has made me much more aware as the people here can express themselves or rather have a discussion without getting into "drama." and it's why I just love Sims 4 Studio. It really is a great community. |
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Post by freeasabird on Feb 27, 2016 15:41:00 GMT -5
What really made me think jkaliszew was the fact that I have never like the TSR way of doing things. However, I have on occasion (when I have nothing better to do than be punished for having a ad blocker) downloaded things to simply see how they worked; cushions, I am obsessed with making cushions but have never won the phong alpha fight in S4S. But TSR have the ability to make them work? Still haven't worked out why but I do have naughty cushions in my game taken from not the makers mesh, I have lots of those, but the inner workings. So when I had to write my TOU I had to stop and think hard. I may not agree with TSR but the creators there trusted me not to mess with their objects. So how could I make a list of don'ts? Plus, someone may take my mesh and make something so much better that I would never see unless I said just do it. Without the people here I would be struggling to make anything. I'm still and always will be total pants at numbers, but have spent many happy hours creating things I always thought I could never do thanks to the generosity of Orange Mittens and all the others here that share their knowledge. Oh I meant to say I read the legal speak, yes its meant to be mildly confusing (its how liers, sorry lawyers make their money). Basically it seems that art is subjective. Its in the eye of the beholder etc. Or get permission and pay a fee and all that goes away. Truth is, a lot of sims 2 meshes are the product of free downloads, but there are creators that still say no to change and sharing; they have no legal right to claim that, if the mesh was uploaded to a share site and the texture wasn't used in the re-production it's a free license. I know because I joined to upload simple meshes to help the sims community. (I'm totally intimidated by the meshers who create awesome, not to be played with meshes, and have so far not had the nerve  ) The trick is, which mesh is which? |
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Post by orangemittens on Feb 28, 2016 10:37:20 GMT -5
freeasabird, which cushion is giving you a headache with phong alpha?
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Marty Moose
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Who's the star of our favorite show? Marty Moose!
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Post by Marty Moose on Feb 28, 2016 14:25:45 GMT -5
Don't hate me for asking this,but,
I though someone had to register with the copyright office in order to claim a copyright.
I know there is no registration to use the Creative Commons licenses,my question is can someone legally state in their TOU "violation of their copyright" without legally registering the item?
I ask because I plan on writing a TOU for my upcoming items.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2016 17:06:00 GMT -5
I dont think you can take legal action if someone breaks your TOU it's just a pleas go by it type of thing. It's a courtesy to follow someone's TOU.
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Post by eronoel on Feb 29, 2016 15:21:19 GMT -5
In the US, copyright exists on created items automatically from the moment they come into being. It is assumed that all creative items (photographs, graphics, paintings, etc) are copyrighted. Registering the copyright of something adds additional information (like if there is a question of authorship, if you registered it they will have the date you registered) and is helpful for legal issues. You can take legal action without registering but... unfortunately on the internet copyright violations are kind of like whack-a-mole and unless you are like Disney it is probably not worth it. There are exceptions to these for work for hire (ie you are paid to make work for someone else) and I am actually not sure how copyright would work considering most cc is usually based on EA's items, which are also copyrighted and since they haven't given express permission to alter their work... yea gray area. But, generally, unless you say otherwise, in the US, you assume that all artwork is copyrighted if it was made in the last 50 years, unless something states otherwise. Here is some basic copyright info in the US Moose. |
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I let it go, life is too short. I have no doubt my meshes are being taken apart or whatever as I type, but there's nothing I can do so why worry. I know how hard it is to get these things right and it must be incredibly frustrating to see work taken and the credit along with it. Maybe we should name and shame those who do this? 
) if something is a truly original idea then it can be legally copyrighted. But how many of us Sims creators really create something totally new? I know I haven’t. If I really came up with a new sofa, bed etc I would not be in blender struggling to make it work in the Sims 4. I would be contacting the patent office and someone to manufacture it. I use endless free textures and sometimes free meshes (I love those people) to see how it was done. I also suspect that all objects made for this game as we use their original meshes are legal property (in a loose sense) to EA games?
) The trick is, which mesh is which? 
